Halloween Special: Placentophagy!

In this episode, Darian Goldin Stahl delves in the wild west of eating your placenta!

Transcript

0:05 

Welcome to this episode of Bioethics for the People.I'm joined by my Co host Tyler Gibb, who according to his students, is best described as the goat of bioethics.My Co host is Devin Stahl, who, according to a previous student, should be cloned and teach all of the bioethics courses. 

0:28 

All right, Tyler.It's another one of our special episodes.I love Halloween episodes, particularly because we get to have a repeat visit by the other Doctor Stall, The spookier, prettier, and all around smarter Doctor Stall. 

0:48 

Dr. Darian Golden Stall.I couldn't agree more.It's lovely to be here with you both.For our special spooky tales of medicine, ethics, and and maybe a little bit of art.Excellent. 

1:04 

Well, because now we're videoing this.Folks can watch the YouTube and actually see the art if you want to share it, Darian.Oh.Well, I wasn't told about that, so OK, I don't have it ready, but we can upload some pictures later.OK, we'll we'll upload pictures to the website. 

1:20 

Perfect.It might also be commentary about how much you 2 resemble each other.I don't know if anybody's ever seen.I feel like I have the pale power of living in Canada right now and Devin looks tan and Texas.Girl, the climate really changes you. 

1:39 

I've heard that about Texas.Mm hmm.We just get prettier in Tanner here.Just all around sweatier.Darian, what do you have for us?So this year's topic, you know, I I've heard it in the zeitgeist and I wanted to dig into it a little bit more. 

1:57 

And wouldn't you know, there's a lot of weird medical and ethical considerations around this serious, dynamic and temporary bodily organ, the placenta.Oh no, we just were joking about this and hopefully it doesn't. 

2:18 

You don't get mad, but I brought it up in a previous episode.So tell us about your placenta.Or just the placenta.Before we start, before we start, I am repulsed by the placenta.It is the.It creeps me out more than anything else in the. 

2:36 

In the body.Wait, yeah, I thought you were a feminist.I I can be a feminist and also be have some thoughts about placentas be repulsed by women's bodies.I love women, but not their bodies. 

2:51 

Their bodies.All right, well, this is this is really fun so far.I I feel like the placenta is finally getting it to do.Like more studies around it are popping up.I've heard different podcast episodes about the placenta.It's it's a remarkable organ both in what it does. 

3:10 

Inside the body and potentially what it can do outside the body.OK.OK.I want to hear all about it.So as an artist, I'm interested in these medical topics, as you know, and as a person who herself grew a placenta. 

3:32 

I wondered if this organ could have some more potential after its main job of sustaining life for a fetus, and it turns out there's a lot of nifty ideas out there.According to such esteemed outlets like parents.com, one might consider inking up that bad boy and stamping it onto a T-shirt or your baby's onesie, which could be considered baby's first print. 

4:02 

So as a printmaker, that one really resonated with me.You could also, if if that's not quite your style, make a cast of it in plaster and frame it alongside of your baby's footprints.Crafty.Or better yet, you might consider drying it out and carving a little space out of the middle of it for a picture of your baby. 

4:28 

So making a placenta photo frame?Oh no, that's too much.With that space that you've carved out, you can't let that go to waste.So consider suspending it in resin and making like a beautiful brooch or some beads that could go on a bracelet. 

4:49 

No, like bodily organ jewelry is where I draw the line well.Don't get me started on what you can do with that little cord stump.Oh, I bet.Oh.It's a lot of beautiful pendants. 

5:07 

So, Devin and Tyler, do any of those sound appealing or do you have a suggestion for another crafty item?No, you could throw it right in the garbage.Or have somebody else throw it into the garbage.Even better, it's medical waste. 

5:23 

Darian, how do people even get their placenta?Maybe I'll get into this, but like, I don't remember the doctor being like, you want this and then me being like, Nah and him throwing it away.How do people even procure their own placenta?Is this like just for home birth kind of stuff?Is it?Is it a particular market that can do this? 

5:40 

Luckily for you all, I have been researching this topic and we will get into it, but I want to frame our discussion in placenta.Frame it in placenta, our discussion of placenta before we go too much further. 

5:57 

And I I want to spend the rest of our time today talking about another fun thing that we can do with a placenta, which may be the one that you all have encountered the most eating them.Some people bury them, right? 

6:14 

Yeah, like being buried like at the foot of a tree or something like that.And then the tree.Like, I don't know there's some sort of special connection to the child, but eating it?I don't know.There's a lot of organs that we have that we don't eat.So why are we Are there many that we expel? 

6:32 

That's true.That's true.Tyler.How often are you expelling organs?Well, I don't think that whether or not I'm expelling the organ makes it more palatable.Usually things that come out of your body should not go back into your body.That's like my general rule.That's what I try to tell my kids when they eat boogers is like, just just don't. 

6:50 

Just like if it's coming out, let it be out.If it wanted to be in, it would have stayed in so.Auto Placentophagy Oh no, that's that's not the name, but it's not really the.Name that is actually the name Auto Placentophagy. 

7:06 

The practice of eating one's own placenta is a sub category, yes.That would imply that there's non auto placenta placenta, right?Yeah, that's right. 

7:22 

That's right.So other other peoples, No, that's that is way worse.OK, we're interrupting.Go ahead, Gary.Tell us what we don't know about this.Yeah, you know we're we're going to get into it.Auto plus entophagy might be known as a subcategory of auto sarcophagy or self cannibalism. 

7:44 

And I I feel like I've gotten a little bit of a reaction so far, but I would.What?What is your initial gut reaction to this, To this practice of eating one's own placenta?Devin and Tyler, I mean, whatever makes you feel good. 

8:01 

It doesn't.It didn't.It didn't appeal to me as somebody who gave birth.That was not something I wanted to do.I mean, I think, like the way I've heard it done is a little less kind of, like visceral than maybe what people might initially imagine like it being expelled. 

8:16 

And you just like taking a big bite of it is repulsive.But maybe there's like other things you could do, I don't know.That face tells me that that's just the norm.We're just like expelling and chomping.That's kind of gross to.Me.I mean, if you're trying to get the nutrients, is that the best way it's? 

8:33 

Got to be the best way, like Bear Grylls style Game of Thrones eating that horse heart.It's like bloody mess.Tyler, have you have you known anyone to eat their own placenta?I don't.I think that I do.I can't think of anybody off the top of my head that I know personally. 

8:49 

Yes, you do, Tyler.Yes, you do.She's on the video right now.Oh, it's me.No.Twist Gotcha.The reveal.All right.Tell us more. 

9:05 

I ate my own placenta.But don't let that stop you from being very critical of this practice.It's totally OK with me.I won't take it personally.Yeah, sure, sure.So the practice of eating one's own placenta actually pretty much started in the US in the 1970s, with proponents stemming from midwives to the alternative health community. 

9:30 

And advocates for this practice report The Naturalness.Citing the fact that most placental mammals eat their own placentas after birth, either to hide the evidence of their vulnerable newborns or just as a nutritious snack. 

9:48 

Now pregnancy takes a lot out of you, and why let that go to waste?But for humans, there is actually not a lot of strong evidence that ancient civilizations practice auto plasentophagy.But.There is a 16th century Chinese medical text, The Compendium of Matira Medica. 

10:10 

I'm guessing that's a translation.Does describe does describe the practice of preparing placenta to feed other members of the family well?This is the placentophagy part, not the auto placentophagy and. 

10:33 

This seems to be a more actually common practice than eating one's own placenta is to kind of have it as a medicinal community banquet snack.Can you imagine bringing that to the potluck? 

10:49 

So wait a second.Oh my gosh.So it was eaten in like a ceremonial like, we're celebrating the birth of this child.Or like, here's some extra protein and iron.To supplement our otherwise normal day diet. 

11:05 

I think it's a celebration and also in like medicine.So drying it out and having it be kind of in the pharmaceutical cabinet for people later, that's really interesting.Darian, I would have thought it was like eating your own would have been some sort of ancient thing, but so I'm surprised to learn it was just a bunch of hippies in the 1970s. 

11:23 

Yeah, I was surprised too.I I thought.But that's a fallacy, right?Like that it has some tie to an ancient practice.But it really doesn't seem to at all OK.But Speaking of which, let's bring it back to this contemporary US context where auto placentology is most likely to occur in the world today. 

11:44 

Wow.In the USI am shocked by this.We are weirdos, aren't we?Well, we love freedom.We love freedom.This.There's nothing more free than eating your own placenta.I I think I saw that on a bumper sticker once. 

12:01 

But that's my right.You can't tell me I can't eat my own placenta.Well, we'll get into that.Oh, OK.The University of Nevada, Las Vegas conducted a survey in 2013 of 189 women who had eaten their placenta with a 95% rating of the experience as positive or extremely positive and overwhelmingly reported that they would do it again. 

12:29 

Yeah, well, I mean, you're not going to do it and then be like, Nah, it wasn't for me.Yeah, there's some sampling bias there.People who eat their placentas are not going to be like, I don't want it, No, they've committed.Yeah, they should do a controlled trial and have people eat them without knowing it and then tell them later. 

12:48 

Get that through your IRB.We're going to slip it in to protein shakes.Go, Darian.The the the reason they're reporting that it was such a positive experience.Is that they reported higher lactation levels, more energy and better mood? 

13:06 

I don't know.I'm dubious, right?Like, how do you like they weren't lactating much and then they took the placenta and then they were lactating more and that wasn't due to like anything else that was happening in their lives.Just how do they how do they know it was the placenta pill, I think.You can know for sure, yeah.I don't think you can know either. 

13:21 

Self-reports about health benefits are dubious.And you're getting into the ethics.But but you know, the self reporting is not all.Healthcare advocates also claim that hormones and nutrients including estrogen, progesterone, lactogen, iron, endorphins and oxytocin are retained through the preparation and consumption of placentas. 

13:46 

It is also said to reduce postpartum bleeding, speed up uterine recovery, enhance maternal bonding and boost the immune system.That does sound amazing and not like any of it was made-up at all by the people trying to sell you your own placenta. 

14:02 

Why?Don't everyone eat their own placenta?Let's do it.Why?Why not?With all these benefits, yeah, if those were real proven benefits, I might have eaten my placenta.Devin and Tyler, let's go ahead and put on your medical ethics hats now and could you maybe put forward a couple reasons why this practice is deemed controversial? 

14:25 

There might be risks, like who's doing it?It's some, like midwife.Is she, like, trained to do this in a Safeway?Like this?Isn't a pharmacy compounding medicine?This is like some woman in her apartment just encapsulating. 

14:42 

Well, you can talk about, like, how you actually prepare it, but I don't know that it's being prepared in like a Safeway.I don't know really know.It's my placenta.I don't know.What if there are actual health risks that were not being reported?Tyler.We have a process of dealing with bodily waste, which I understand that we're not deeming this as waste, but bodily material in a way that is safe, right? 

15:05 

I mean we deal with blood products and parts of other parts of bodies in a way that is safe and.Handled in very particular ways.I guess I don't my concern would be that we're not that there's potential for for risk or infection or something. 

15:21 

I don't know.It's obviously not a well researched area.So there's concerns about whether there's actual benefit or not.There's a significant yuck factor.I'm going to go on record and say ethics is mostly about yuck factor. 

15:39 

So he feels like he's something must be wrong.No.But I mean yeah, like there there just seem like some potential risks.Also, if we haven't been doing this, women have had successful burrs and postpartum experiences without this for Millennium. 

15:55 

So like why do we need this?Not to say like just because it's new, it's bad, it's new, it's not well researched.I'm I'm skeptical.I think all of those are very valid points.Let's start with the health risks.So what?What are the safety concerns?When?Eating one's own placenta. 

16:12 

Some providers of placenta preparation do adhere to Occupational Safety and Health Administration regulations, OSHA, but it is truly the Wild West out there.There's a lot of information and recipes on non medical or government regulated websites on how to prepare your own placenta for consumption, so it's a lot of just sharing information with each other on the Internet. 

16:39 

And given that the placenta can be a hotbed of bacteria and viruses as the filtration organ for a developing fetus, proper preparation should be given actually quite a lot of attention.Yeah, I didn't even think of that.What is its function in the body? 

16:56 

Is like Probably pretty important to like what it it consists of, yeah?A lot of bacteria and viruses, Yeah.So you're eating a lot of your own bacteria and viruses.Maybe.You know, we probably do that anyway.It's not a strong argument, Darian. 

17:13 

It's not a strong argument.I have young children.I probably am accidentally consuming a lot of viruses and bacteria.That's right and and actually I could only find.Evidence for one confirmed case of an infant needing hospitalization due to a strep B blood infection tied to their mother's consumption of the placenta. 

17:35 

So I think if it were super risky, we'd probably hear more about these cases.Fair not to say that they're not happening, but it doesn't seem to be an an overwhelming consequence of the millions of women eating their own placenta.That's. 

17:53 

Right, you said recipes, which has me concerned because when I thought I thought you were talking about drying it out and like encapsulating it, but.Oh, Tyler.Oh, no.Simple, simple Tyler.I feel like you're going to ruin my day, Darien. 

18:12 

Yeah, I just, you know, I hope you've already eaten breakfast.OK.I think the next point y'all brought up was the efficacy.Does it actually do the things that placenta eating advocates say?Well, there haven't been a ton of studies to begin with and the ones that have been done don't find a lot of strong evidence. 

18:33 

I could really only find 1 double-blind test around eating ones on placenta, and it had to do with measuring the iron levels.Of people eating and not eating their own placentas.Since pregnancy does leave a lot of people iron deficient and low iron is a known cause of like low mood. 

18:57 

So it could be that the iron rich placenta is one of these mood boosting factors of eating of eating it.But the study found actually no difference in iron levels for people who had eaten their placentas and those who had not after three weeks time. 

19:16 

So you might have had like an initial boost, but really no market difference after three weeks, OK.So it's not, it's not helping you recover iron, it's.Not the iron, but that's about it.There are really no other blind case studies to measure what the placenta is doing. 

19:35 

I think that there's a lot of momentum now, but the results haven't been published.I mean, a double-blind insinuates that they encapsulated something and put it in a pill and it's like it could be your placenta, it might not be, might be dirt.Yeah, that's what they did. 

19:52 

I what what they're like, kind of like brownish Gray, right?Yeah, they look like little dried mushroom bits.It's kind of chunky.So in my my when my wife gave birth, I don't remember like seeing the like.There's a lot of other things going on in the room, but I I have this vague memory of like a melon sized like gooey scab. 

20:16 

That's my impression of a scab.I mean honestly that's that's an accurate right assessment.So, so we're we're on the same page.So you're telling me that at some point somebody looked at that after having just witnessed birth, which is its own type of miracle. 

20:35 

Miracle.That's the word I was looking for.And then they said, I wonder what it tastes like.And then they ate it that IA.Bunch of hippies in the 70s, That's hard for me.You know, hippies.You know those hippies?You know, curious folk. 

20:51 

What does a placenta look like inside the body?Is it beautiful, Darien?It's a pancake.It's like a big bloody vanny pancake.Yeah.Well, that sounds more appetizing.Yeah.And one thing that you're alluding to, Tyler, that maybe we haven't touched on yet is the medical burden. 

21:14 

So there is an extra step if you know that the person giving birth wants to eat their placenta and that kind of falls to the medical and nursing staff to take it and leave it somewhere sanitary so that you can take it home. 

21:30 

And in the pregnancy books that I read, I was suggested to bring a big old Ziploc bag and a cooler filled with ice.Oh.My gosh, bring your old Ziploc bag to your.Birth to your birth if if you know that you want that because you really can't rely on the medical staff to do anything. 

21:50 

To have a biohazard bag, I mean, I'm just going to tell you that's like messed up because there's lots of those.Like they have special bags.But maybe bring your own, just in case.Maybe they just, like, plop it in the garbage right away.And he said no, no, no, put it in this bag.Did you did you go out and buy Ziploc gallon sized bags and have it in your like your go bag in preparation for giving birth? 

22:11 

So here's what happened to me.I had a doula who I had pre arranged for her to gather my placenta.But during my birth, things went South.And I had to have an emergency C-section. 

22:26 

So they wheeled me into the operating room, which is a space where only my husband could come with me.So the doula was not allowed in the operating room.And there is a flurry of activity going on.And honestly, the last thing on my mind was, wait, wait, wait, my placenta. 

22:42 

Like, what's going to happen here?But you know, to their credit, I have a picture from the nursing staff.Of, you know, a nurse holding my naked screaming baby next to a screen that has her weight and inches height on it. 

23:00 

And in the corner of the photo is a big clear plastic bag with my placenta in it.Nice.And it's like, oh, this is like they got it and they put it in a bag.My baby and my baby's former home, yeah.Well, did you tell them ahead of time though, like or the doula was like at the door knocking with the bag going. 

23:21 

Don't forget about the placenta.I have no idea.Maybe my doula had talked to them.I don't remember really talking about it.I I was in a different world, which I I think is fair.It was really far away from my mind. 

23:37 

Yeah, that seems fair.Well, good.Good on your doula, because she clearly was the one.I doubt it was your husband.No.No.He wasn't doing anything.Yeah.Like, literally nothing.But he was there.In the room.He.Was there, I guess. 

23:53 

He was actually texting me, so he wasn't doing nothing.That's true.He was buying toys off of Facebook Marketplace that I was making him purchase a giant rocking squirrel.For the baby.For the baby, you You have your placenta in a plastic bag, but you don't. 

24:12 

It's not like you, you know, give birth and jump up and go home.So did your husband have to, like, carry it, take it home and put it in the fridge?Or like what happened?So I think what happened was the nursing staff put it in a refrigerator and then my doula picked it up from the refrigerator and took it away and did whatever she does with them. 

24:37 

It's best to not ask questions.I don't know.She showed up at my house three days later with a bunch of pills.It's a real Jesus moment.It was taken away and who knows?It seemed dead.But then three days later, it came back.It gave.You life.And it gave you life. 

24:53 

Nice.Yes.And I would say, OK, the next kind of squishy medical ethics that Tyler, you're focused on, I think is to question, is this Wellness culture run amok, You know, what's the deal here? 

25:12 

Who are these people?And I think those who are skeptical of this practice also cite the trendiness of it and potentially A widespread placebo effect of these amazing benefits to eating one's own placenta. 

25:29 

Sure, now this is a practice grown from a niche Wellness community with big celebrity endorsements today, like January Jones, who cites eating her own placenta as the reason why she was able to go back to the set of Mad Men only six weeks postpartum. 

25:45 

Six weeks?Yikes.Oh, poor lady.Why just stay home?To stay home and you know, Khloe Kardashian posted her placenta pills on her Instagram, which is a huge get for the placenta eating community. 

26:06 

The PE CS, AS I like to be called.Yeah.So what's the volume?How many pills are we talking about?I mean, is it like a thought?Like, yeah, like a kilo of.I'm envisioning like your doula coming in having like a, you know, a duct taped kilo like a drug dealer. 

26:22 

So it depends how big your own placenta is, because they vary in size.But.In general, in general.For me, I had four placenta pills a day for 30 days. 

26:41 

That's a good amount, so. 120 pills?Did you eat all of them?Oh yeah.Except the ones that I ate.Just kidding, I didn't do that.I was.I did see them when I was visiting and I considered putting them in my coffee in the morning. 

26:57 

But I in your coffee.Oh.Yeah, like the salt.Like open it, open the capsule.And it's like on the top of the latte.Oh yeah, Yeah.Gosh.Devin, I have a question for you.OK, what do you think the demographic breakdown is for people who eat white women? 

27:18 

It's all white women.Anything else?Nope.Just just white women of a certain age, of a certain age up.Upper middle class, educated.Yeah, this is a like a wealthier white lady thing to do. 

27:34 

Is that right?That is absolutely right.Of course, because you have to, like, pay someone to do it.Yeah, and it's weird.It's not cheap.Oh, we haven't even talked about the cost.What is?What is it?If you don't mind us asking Darian, how much in Canadian dollars did you have to pay to get your placenta encapsulated I? 

27:52 

Don't remember.I think it was like 250 bucks.Oh, OK, that's not nothing.Yeah, it didn't seem outrageous either.It seemed like just on the cusp of like, OK, well I'm not paying free because I live in.Canada.Yeah, that's true. 

28:07 

That's true.It's going to say not because you're not paying for your delivery or the healthcare at all, then seems like a drop in the bucket.We call those co-pays in America.Yeah.That's one ibuprofen in the emergency room.So there's there's a lot of mass media outlets like the Times running headlines like after birth. 

28:30 

It's what's for dinner.No, that's a good one.I like it.So popular culture has kind of sensationalized its reporting, and it could be providing this practice with more credence than than maybe it deserves. 

28:48 

The mass media would never do that, but.But I also put this on its head, Devin and Tyler.Is this another case of white lady mass hysteria, or would this be a case of medicine disregarding what women are reporting about their own bodies? 

29:06 

Sure.Good question.Good question.Well, the fact that so many are doing it and there's been so little research is kind of like in and of itself, like a woman bias, probably.Because even if even if it does nothing, and there's no research to show it does, if that many people are doing it, we should probably do some research to make sure it's not risky or that it actually is doing something all right. 

29:29 

So the fact that there's been like, one study is embarrassing.So that's that's kind of the ethical portion of this practice.But I want to get down to the brass tacks of the lawfulness of this practice.Yeah, this is where this is the stuff that actually matters, not that squishy ethics. 

29:47 

Agreed finally, finally the real stuff.Just tell me what to do and maybe.This is a question for Tyler.What do you think are some legal barriers that people might face if they want to take home and eat their placenta?Boy, this is not something I've thought about before. 

30:07 

I wonder if it would be regulated under something along the same lines that we regulate how to handle corpses.Like I wonder if it's some sort of like like municipal public health codes or something like that would be involved.Can you sell it? 

30:25 

Is it a commercial product?Well, it's an organ, so no right?Can you sell your You can't sell your own organs.I could sell my fingernails.Oh, I mean, I guess you could.That's a good point.Yeah.Is a placenta more like an an appendix or is it more like a fingernail? 

30:42 

I mean, you probably couldn't just sell your appendix, right?So I had.I had my tonsils taken out when I was actually just after law school, and I thought about getting them lacquered and made into earrings.How are you so quick about what we're talking about? 

30:57 

And then admit that, drop that bombshell into this conversation like you're so much higher and mightier than us.And then he wanted to wear his tonsils as earrings.Yeah, I wanted to.I wanted to.I wanted to give them as as earrings, as a gift and not tell anybody what they actually were. 

31:15 

That's the troll move, yeah, but they said no.They said I couldn't.I couldn't have them.Oh, OK.They like threw them away and burned them.Yeah, 'cause it's it's a biohazard, right?It's bio waste.So it's unsafe to just like, let people have stuff we take out of them potentially. 

31:31 

Wait, why is?Why are Placentas different then?This is a great question and Darian teach us.Yeah, so this is a real patchwork of specific hospital policy, city and statewide laws, And many hospitals do consider the placenta to be medical waste. 

31:52 

So either they flat out refuse to give it to you, they make you sign a liability waiver to take it away, or you must obtain a court order ahead of time.For you to be able to take your own placenta, which is what one woman did in Mississippi Jordan Tearing, and it cost her nearly $1000 on top of the fees of actually encapsulating your placenta in order to take it away from the hospital. 

32:20 

She really wanted that placenta.Really wanted it.But if she had lived in other states, she would have the legal right.To take home her placenta.So actually written into the laws of three states is the right to have your placenta. 

32:35 

Let's guess which ones.California.No, I I bet it's not Texas.Oregon.Oregon.That doesn't surprise me.Yeah, Washington.Washington Nope.Oh, what are the other hippie states? 

32:51 

It.Is the.Hippie One.Hippies.New Hampshire.No.Where are Ben and Jerry from?Vermont.Vermont.No.Yeah.All right.Tell us where.Hawaii.Hawaii, of course.And then the third one, which state has the most freedom? 

33:09 

It's not Texas, is it Texas.It's.Texas, you didn't take advantage of your freedom.That's right.Wow, I feel like such a sucker now.Come to Texas where you can get a tan and eat your placenta.Barbecue placenta, like placenta tacos. 

33:27 

Less than Papos.So there's there's also super helpful hospitals like Mass General in Boston that will test the placenta for pathogens and package it up for you to take home.So really, other hospitals are going above and beyond to make this process easy and safer for new parents. 

33:48 

Yeah, they're probably like, if these women are going to do it anyway, we might as well try to make it safe for them.That's fascinating because as a hospital, like getting a hospital to do something that doesn't have some sort of evidence behind it, I mean, that's hard, right?Just so someone can say, oh, I'm going to eat my placenta based upon no published data about the benefits or risks, really. 

34:10 

And the hospital is going to do it for you?I don't know.That seems strange to me.I can see the hospital saying if you want to take it, that's fine.We don't want anything to do with it.Yeah, the liability, that's that's how risk typically works.They're like, all right, sign a waiver.I guess whatever you want to do on your own time is fine.But the hospital going through and like processing and redistributing it, that's interesting to me. 

34:30 

It's harm reduction.It's a public health thing, right?Good for them.So, and another layer to the legality of this issue are the businesses that are.Processing your placenta and then selling it back to you and the state laws regulating these businesses are incredibly strict, proactive and really keep the mother's health at the forefront. 

34:56 

Good, good, good.Just kidding.Oh, yeah, of course not.You mean they're more probusiness than pro woman?That there just are no laws at all.It's it's a total free for all.Parents bear the burden of sleuthing out their provider and making sure that they have some kind of licensing or sanitary practices. 

35:18 

But you can give it to like anyone, and then they'll just do something and bring it back to you for money.There's, there's no regulations there.So Darian, based upon the our conversations from a couple of seasons ago when you were talking about the lack of regulation on what we do with dead bodies, it's not surprising that we have zero laws about placental remains, how we deal placental handling I guess. 

35:45 

Right.And then I have to question because I saw this debate like do we really want governmental bodies to be regulating this business?So the the United States Food and Drug Administration does not currently regulate encapsulating placentas. 

36:02 

And while it might.Seem like a good idea for the FDA to put forth some standards for selling placenta prep services.These are almost exclusively women owned cottage industries who could definitely not afford to have any kind of industrial equipment to process placentas, which is probably what the FDA would would demand. 

36:26 

So a lot of providers then would shutter.We want that.Would such regulation over protect women to their own health detriment?Well, I mean, that presumes there's some health benefit, but OK. 

36:41 

I think it also presumes that there's a lot of risk, and that hasn't been shown to be the case either.Like I can trade cookies and sell people cookies.Yeah, same thing.It's a great analogy.It's.Not, not, not so different maybe. 

36:58 

Well, we I think maybe a better analogy would be like all these women who sell their breast milk.Oh, that's a whole other thing because because that's raw, you don't pasteurize it.That seems more dangerous than the placenta, I think, because at least the placenta might get like cooked or dried to mitigate some of the bacteria, whereas the milk is raw. 

37:17 

I think this is the first time in all the seasons we've been doing Darien's special episodes that I saw Darien have a yuck reaction to something and it was breast milk.Yeah, Darian, what do you hate women's bodies?So, Darian, why did you do it? 

37:34 

I thought if any of it could be true, then why not?Like I didn't see the risks posing that much of A risk and the benefits seem to be plentiful.And there's a lot of anecdotal evidence out there because there just are no scientific double-blind case studies to back up those anecdotes. 

37:55 

But.My doula, who's doula D for decades and has hundreds and hundreds of people eating their placenta under her belt.She really advocated for it, though.She's also selling it to me.As you say.Oh, you mean the woman who charged you $250 to do it thought that it was good? 

38:13 

I.Don't know.So yeah, this is fascinating.So, Darian, when you first thought of this, at what point in your commitment to doing this did you bring your partner into the conversation?You know, he's pretty open minded and I've done a lot of weird stuff to our house in the pursuit of making art and he's always been very generous for that. 

38:38 

So I I brought it up kind of right away and he was like, whatever you want.Uh huh.Which is perfect.Yeah, it's the right answer from a from a spouse.Yeah.But he wasn't also like, yeah, let I'll take, I'll take 2 pills a day.You take 2 pills a day and we'll.Yeah, Why would he take them? 

38:55 

That's they're for me.I mean, apparently it's good for iron and.Not iron.That's the only thing we do know.It's not iron.OK, you're right.I can't think of any reason why he would do it.You know the, so we're getting back to the the efficacy here and I think another question we could ask is, is this a case for the consumer protection agency? 

39:22 

You know, we are being sold a product that purportedly has all these benefits.But what if there's no benefits at all and we're all getting scammed?That's true.So it could be more like the the the dietary supplement industry rather than the Pharmaceutical industry. 

39:39 

Absolutely.A classically well regulated industry supplements.Yeah, but also, I mean, it's the same debate there.Like, do these pills actually have what they have in them on the label?Does it have these benefits?Are we being scammed? 

39:54 

Yeah, it seems to me like they've only gotten in trouble when they don't actually contain the thing they say they're containing, but they haven't really gotten in trouble for claiming that supplements do something that they probably don't really do.Isn't that right?Yeah, I think that's right.So if you found out that your doula gave you placenta pills that were full of chalk, then we should report her to the Better Business. 

40:16 

Bureau.Yeah, I'd be bummed.So that's that's kind of what I have today.And I I wanted to know after this conversation, Devin and Tyler, do you have some concluding thoughts on the rights, ethics, potential regulations or permission? 

40:35 

Yeah, we've touched on a lot of these things.So another question for you Darian, when you had, so you you had all 30 days, 4 you said 4 pills a day, 30 days.When you were taking your last dose, what were your thoughts and emotions taking the last dose or was it a non event for you? 

40:52 

Here's what I'll say.What what I'm about to say should not be taken as medical advice or opinion, but I think everyone should eat their placenta.It was awesome.There were there was like a three day gap.Between having my baby and the placenta bills being processed and delivered to my home, those three days were horrible. 

41:15 

I was like constantly crying, could not stop weeping 24 hours a day.The day after I started taking my pills, it was like a light switch flicked on and I was so much more in control of my emotions. 

41:33 

It was really like this night and day difference.I couldn't believe it because I was fairly skeptical.I was interested in like, oh, maybe, you know, these will have some benefits, but it was so dramatic.And maybe that third day would have been the turning point anyway.It's impossible to know, but I guess I like to think that the pills had something to do with it. 

41:53 

And if it was just a placebo, then what a hell of a placebo?Like, I'd paid money for that placebo.It worked.And I was very sad.At the end of those 30 days and a little bit scared like, Oh no, I wonder if I'll go back to being super sad and weepy. 

42:10 

I didn't.But yeah, I was in the 95% of people that had an overwhelmingly positive experience and I would do it again.Extremely positive experience.Well, that's enough for me.So do it.I don't have that many ethical concerns. 

42:27 

I mean the the yuck factor is high in this one I think but but now that but as we think through it a little bit and Darien's glowing review of of her experience, I think I'm softening.Well, get ready to be grossed out again, because we've made it to the parts of our placenta discussion where I'm going to give you some suggestions on how to eat it. 

42:51 

All right, so not encapsulation.I guess that's what you did, but there are other options.There are other options because.If you know you're wanting to keep all those nutrients, you don't want any of the hormones or whatever being baked away, then eating it raw might be the choice for you. 

43:10 

You can dig in.You know, the original recipe.Chicken Choppy the way Kentucky Fried Chicken?No.No, no, The way the way nature intended.Right the way Nature intended.Just naman. 

43:26 

Yeah, but if that's a little too visceral for you, you can, like, pack off chunks and pop them into your smoothie in the morning.You know, make little ice cubes out of your placenta and and blend them up.Or you can cook it up.You know, like a steak with a little side of vegetables. 

43:44 

For extra, You know, rounding out your nutritional plate, you can mince it up.As the protein option in such things as lasagna or chili or placenta pie.Oh.No. 

44:00 

Placenta pie?Oh.But I like this placenta Taco.Placenta tacos.That's a great suggestion that I didn't see, but I'm like, why not?But if these if these savory options you know aren't for you, you're more of a dessert girl then. 

44:19 

If you can satisfy that sweet tooth after it's been dried and pulverized by dusting it into your favorite truffle recipe, just roll it in there.Yum.I like it.The idea of it being like the cenery nugget in a chocolate. 

44:37 

Oh, that's creative.Yeah, go for that.But even like this is the drying and pulverizing.You can judge that up a little bit.How?Tell us how.Well, your placenta can be first steamed in an herb bath with traditional Chinese medicine recipes before placed in the dehydrator and pulverizer, which is what my doula did. 

45:02 

Still seems dehydrated by the end of it, but OK it was.Steamed with medicines.Steamed with medicines.I didn't ask any more.Questions after that.Best not to.So my my yuck factor is rebounding.Yeah, we're we're back. 

45:19 

So Darian, if you had the opportunity to eat another placenta, would you do it?And how would you consume it?I guess my instinct is like, why?If I were going through a depressive episode, then yes, I think that I might try eating someone's placenta again. 

45:43 

I don't suffer generally from depression or anxiety, so I'm like, I don't think I have a hormone imbalance.I would rather somebody else, you know, because it's a precious thing.Save it for somebody that needs it.I mean like there are other drugs for those conditions that I might recommend first, but. 

45:59 

Will those have consequences too, Devin?Yeah.Well, thanks for coming along on this cannibal adjacent spooky gross episode of Auto Plus Antopagy.Such a fun word.Such a fun word that I will not say right now because I'm afraid of messing it up. 

46:16 

Say it one more time, I.Practiced it auto plus antopagy.Thanks, Darian.Happy Halloween.Happy Halloween.Thanks for listening to this episode of Bioethics for the People. 

46:35 

We can't do this podcast by ourselves.We've tried and it's not pretty.Our team includes our research interns, Michaela Kim, Madison Foley and Macy Hutto.Special thanks to Helen Webster for social media and production support.Our theme music was created and performed by the talented Chris Wright, friend to all, dad to two and husband to 1. 

46:54 

Podcast art was created by Darian Goldenstall.You can find more of her work at dariangoldenstall.com.You can find more information about this episode and all of our previous seasons at bioethicsforthepeople.com.We love to connect with our listeners.All of our episodes can be found wherever you listen to podcasts. 

47:12 

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